Marketing is a tough job — tougher in cannabis. And a lot has changed in the industry over the past decade. One thing that hasn't changed? The fundamentals. Wana Brands Chief Marketing Officer Joe Hodas sat down and chatted with Vangst CEO, Karson Humiston about his journey from the "traditional" advertising industry to leading the marketing of some of the biggest brands in cannabis. His work at Wana Brands has led to the edible giant's expansion into 15 states and two countries — and the brand recently struck a $298M deal with Canopy Growth. Whether you're looking to get into cannabis marketing to build a great brand or are trying to build a team, this episode is a must-listen. The key is always finding the right fit for both employers and their staff, Joe said, and this is how you do it. Produced by PodConx Proud To Work In Cannabis - https://podconx.com/podcasts/proud-to-work-in-cannabis Karson Humiston - https://podconx.com/guests/karson-humiston Vangst - https://vangst.com/ Joe Hodas - https://podconx.com/guests/joe-hodas Wana Brands - https://www.wanabrands.com/
Marketing is a tough job — tougher in cannabis.
And a lot has changed in the industry over the past decade. One thing that hasn't changed? The fundamentals. Wana Brands Chief Marketing Officer Joe Hodas sat down and chatted with Vangst CEO, Karson Humiston about his journey from the "traditional" advertising industry to leading the marketing of some of the biggest brands in cannabis.
His work at Wana Brands has led to the edible giant's expansion into 15 states and two countries — and the brand recently struck a $298M deal with Canopy Growth.
Whether you're looking to get into cannabis marketing to build a great brand or are trying to build a team, this episode is a must-listen. The key is always finding the right fit for both employers and their staff, Joe said, and this is how you do it.
Proud To Work In Cannabis - https://podconx.com/podcasts/proud-to-work-in-cannabis
Karson Humiston - https://podconx.com/guests/karson-humiston
Vangst - https://vangst.com/
Joe Hodas - https://podconx.com/guests/joe-hodas
Wana Brands - https://www.wanabrands.com/
Joe Hodas: Well, I'm Joe Hodus chief marketing officer for wana brands in Boulder, Colorado. I'm proud to work in cannabis because feel like it's an area where we can have real social change and real change in this country. And so few opportunities to impact change in the way that I think campus can.
Karson Humiston: Hey everybody. And welcome to the proud to work in cannabis podcast. I'm your host Carson hummus, Dan, the founder of. And today I'm so excited to have Joe Hodus with us. Joe is the chief marketing officer at wan and brands. Colorado's number one, edible amazing business that has been in business for a really long time.
They've been pioneers in the space. Joe's been in the industry for 10 years. So we're excited to hear Joe's perspective on what the industry was like a decade ago and where it is today and where Joe thinks it will be in the next [00:01:00] decade. So, Joe, thank you so much for being here with us today. We're so happy to have you.
Joe Hodas: Well, thanks Carl. And I really appreciate that. And so 10 years and I think that throughout those 10 years, served in a couple different roles as chief marketing officer, sometimes on operations for smaller companies I've had an opportunity to really do. Pretty and pretty deep in a number of different areas of the industry.
And thing I know for sure is that, I'm proud to work in cannabis because an industry and there's of them left that you can actually have real significant change and see it in real time hear feedback from consumers and from communities in real time about that impact.
And I think that have that opportunity is. As a really an amazing feature of this industry that I think perhaps some people don't always get an opportunity to see firsthand.
Karson Humiston: absolutely. We're going to things that I wanted to talk about today, but why don't you start out by talking to us a little bit about how you ended up deciding to join the cannabis industry?[00:02:00]
Joe Hodas: Well, so along about 2010, when it was still medical only in Colorado, I was working with an ad agency here and we had a a person who worked for us who came back from lunch. She said, Hey, I talked to company is making a pot soda. He's a buddy of mine. Would we be interested doing some brand work for them? Well, of course, because that sounds really interesting and, took it to my creative team. They of course wanted to know when, when they were going to get free samples. And we ended up doing not only the creative work, but also a lot of we did intercepts of dispensaries and things like that. when the light bulb went off for me when I saw some of that data coming back terms of who was consuming, why they were consuming, how they were consuming. I began to understand the, the depth and breadth and the complexity of this industry. Pretty instantaneously. Now always been a consumer and I'd always been a in favor of legalization, had never really looked at it from an industry perspective. So it was that point that I said, okay, this is something I really want to get deeper into. So we did a bunch of the work for them. I kept in touch with this [00:03:00] company and ultimately when adult use legalization was passed here in Colorado. Reach back out to these guys and said, Hey, I'd love to a jump from the agency side, back to the corporate side. I became the chief marketing officer for Dixie elixirs the Dixie brands now, but Dixie time the first week of adult use legalization here in Colorado. So January 24.
Karson Humiston: Wow. So you started with Dixie early, early days. Talk to us about what it was like in those early days of Colorado being with probably the most well-known brand in the entire.
Joe Hodas: it was crazy. I mean, you know, All of us, the state, the regulators, the communities, all kind of figuring it out as we went along, because we didn't know exactly how that was going to end up. So, you know, first big push was do we change the packaging to make it a child resistant and compliant with new rules?
And how's it going to look on the shelf? And actually, I was one of the first opportunities I had to really, establish a foundation for does a brand in [00:04:00] this industry look like? Because I realized that these consumers walking into the store wouldn't understand. One product from another, because there's no brand loyalty at that point. for that matter, people didn't really understand all the various formats they would have access to. So, our first line of thought was let's make a packaging scheme that looks and feels very professional, very well done because that kind of became the contract with the consumer. this company is spending dollars in making packaging that's appropriate, hopefully their products are something I can trust.
And I think that paid off really well. So. I think if you look back in the first, let's say six months of 2014, you would look at all different brands and products are out there are stood out head and shoulders above the rest. And that made a huge difference for us. But , at the same time had a number of different things. Early on in the industry that led to changes from dosing to how we mark the products, et cetera. that became a foundation for many other states as well. So had the opportunity to be involved in a lot of that regulatory process, which was exciting as well. And as a, as a parent [00:05:00] of three kids, It was an opportunity for me to also help shape an industry in a way that thought was safe as the most effective.
Karson Humiston: And so in the early days, figuring out who your target customer and how you are going to brand the product when there was literally no market research in advance of you coming in, like, how did you go about that process?
Joe Hodas: Well, I'll still say there's not a ton of market research, to be honest, , we're getting a lot more data on, on sort of the sales side and understanding , product velocity and sales data, but the fundamental consumer data doesn't really come across very strongly in cannabis still.
So, we kind of formulated products and we said, okay, we know. In general, we want to price ourselves at a little bit of a premium. We want to come across as a premium brand. We want to be in formats that are gonna appeal to that consumer. So we have of broad understanding of kind of the general target that we want to, pursue.
But we also then are quickly realizing in 2014, how much control the budtender would have in that conversation. What appeals to the bud tender that they're [00:06:00] then able to translate down to the consumer, was really important for us as well as we began to formulate new products, understanding messaging, et cetera.
And I'll tell you what was really interesting is of the learnings I had early on. In regards to digital and how to reach the consumer from a digital perspective, we ran what I thought was really great enter to win, where they had to upload a little bit of the user generated content like a 32nd flip. I remember all the exact details, but the point was is that thought it was great. The prize was really awesome, was a huge like red rocks, , concert gives you the transportation, all kinds of things. We got like two, three entries. And that's when we realized like, can maybe the cannabis consumer is not quite ready to start uploading, who they are and how they're consuming.
And so, rapidly changed some of , the digital strategies and results.
Karson Humiston: Talk to me about the marketing team that you built out around you, who were the kinds of people that you were looking to hire and would be curious to hear how marketing roles have evolved [00:07:00] throughout that your decade in cannabis.
Joe Hodas: There's some things that haven't changed. Actually. I was going to say early days, you know, it was a real focus on people who had a passion and understanding for the plant. I don't think that's changed. I actually really gravitate towards that. luckily in every role I've been in, I've been able to surround myself with really smart people because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do either because need that support I need, and I their brilliance to help make the brand really go.
So, it was, a lot of graphic design, marketing strategy. It was I think the basic tenants of social media initially. And then once we began to see cannabis specific social media platforms peripherally, but also to understand the rules of existing platforms like Facebook and Instagram, et cetera. , we had to kind of shift that, that knowledge, that a little bit, and I would say, fast forward to. Not too dissimilar, except that , it's much larger. So we have field marketing out in, throughout the country. We have about 10 people underneath that umbrella. a whole graphic design and creative team. We have content development, [00:08:00] we have strategists. So , it's a much broader, set because obviously we're larger right at this point. One is. 15 states two countries. So we have a depth and breadth that didn't exist on. And that was always the struggle for cannabis in the early days was having enough support for rapid growth, but also recognizing that we just didn't have , the rest of the infrastructure to support that as a company.
Karson Humiston: So speaking of water brands, I would love to hear about the transition from Dixie one, leading cannabis brand. To wanna another talk to us about that transition And why you decided to join Juana and then a little bit about the journey there so far.
Joe Hodas: So, was, again, 2014. I got to know a lot of people in the industry here in Colorado, cause we'd be at the Capitol together and working on legislation, working with regulators. And that's where I got to know Nancy Whiteman a little bit. And I remember the very first time I met her and I told her this story before, we were at a bunch of us were together at a Panera bread, I think, somewhere downtown and discussing some of the upcoming legislation. [00:09:00] I was really impressed by how smart and how she kind of held herself. And was, very excited to, to get to know her a little bit. And at the same time, what she told me is that she was watching one. And admiring kind of what we were doing on the brand side and wishing that, you know, she kind of had someone like that on her side. So the point is we knew each other, we kept in touch, had a great relationship , as colleagues and friends. And then, as things go kind of ran its course and I left for. At the animal side of things for a couple of years, I went with ancillary business for a little while, and then I was with a, true hardware and software startup working on a dose inhaler device. And it was during that period of time where I began to meet with Nancy on a, on a fairly regular basis.
And, there was a point at which this former company, we had run into some issues with funding, et cetera. And so Nancy and I were, were connecting. And this was just the beginning of COVID. So was thinking about making a move and I was watching what was happening with COVID in real time.
[00:10:00] Right? Like everybody was, things began to shut down as more and more problems began to arise as a result. And I called Nancy and. She was talking about maybe he was halting. I said, think I'd like to come work for you if that's possible. And that , was all she needed to hear. And we ended up making it happen.
So, I started the first week of lockdown here in Colorado for my basement. And it's been an absolutely journey ever since, because , it is challenging in this industry. I think to find. The right cultural fit and the right environment.
And despite the fact that I've had plenty of experience, it took me this long to realize that I'm happiest when my values are aligned with the company's values. And that seems very obvious. Right. those who are just starting out in the industry, this is I think a really important point finding that right.
Fit with your values. All the other stresses of this industry, , which there are many just much easier to deal with. , so , the minute I joined Nancy and the one, a team, and we're surrounding myself with great people I [00:11:00] realized that this was what I'd been missing was the right place for me.
Karson Humiston: One thing that I've always admired about Juana and the a team is completely bootstrapped business, which is so rare and impressive in cannabis. Can you talk to us about the difference of working for a bootstrap business like Juana versus some of the other businesses that you work to, which had raised venture capital or had raised.
External funding.
Joe Hodas: absolutely. And you're right. , Nancy's story and the way that she wants. With no debt with no outside investors , basically funding it out of operations and grow to the size that she did. , I hate to sound typical, but as a unicorn, , that doesn't happen often in any industry, but certainly not in cannabis. And. Drives a different perspective in terms of the brand, in terms of your product development, in terms of your, your marketing, because you have much greater control over what you do. You're not answering to capitalist. You're not worrying about what's my next round of funding look like. So let me do this thing that maybe [00:12:00] makes me look good on the books so that I can then out and raise more dollars. Completely different perspective. And I think that's a real challenge in this industry right now because of banking and 2d and all the other reasons that we know so many companies , are cash starved and need the resources. And so they do things that maybe aren't in the best long-term interest of the company.
They're building themselves for. Either the sale or some type of, acquisition merger. so it's just a different perspective from Nancy has done, was to, to build a brand and a company that was able to live its values every day inside and out. . And so, way, when I talk about brand. I don't just mean it from the marketing perspective. I mean, the entirety of the company, all of our employees, the way we interact with our partners, we do business, that's all part of the brand in my mind. it allowed us to really, I think, organically grow something that very few companies in cannabis had the opportunity to do.
Karson Humiston: No, and I it's completely a unicorn, . I can't think of another brand in cannabis that has grown to be [00:13:00] as large as Juana that was completely bootstrapped. And so it says it's a total Testament to the brand, the culture, the team. And it's so cool hearing from you that when you joined in the deep of COVID, the culture was so strong that it was able to carry you all through COVID.
Even with employees working from their basements.
Joe Hodas: Yeah. , and to this day, actually, cause , we, by team within our company, but we allow you to our departments kind of figure it out on their own. my, my team still works remotely. Once in a while we'll come to the office together, but ultimately gets their work done and that's just kind of the culture we have.
, I think it's driven by a passion that everyone has for the brand, for the products and , for how we enhance people's lives.
Karson Humiston: So one of the things that you talked about was the brand living the values internally and externally , as the COO, how do you make sure that everything you're doing is staying on brand and living the values? What are some tactical things that other marketers out there [00:14:00] can do to make sure that they don't go off brand?
Joe Hodas: Well, I think the first thing I would say is yourself with people who understand the brand. So you've got to, to drive that education in the passion for those values internally that you can be sure that. We may not always hit the mark, but at least everyone is trying their best to those values in every interaction they have to, set some ground rules for yourselves as a company. And not only do you have the written mission, vision values, the way that many companies do. You use those on a daily basis and you check in with those and you say, okay, is this decision running a foul of any of the things that we've listed here as being our values or mission or our vision and ensure that your teams are kind of of it as well and , using that as a decision making matrix well. you'll hold each other accountable. I, you know, As a chief marketing officer, I can't be in all places at all times across all departments. And frankly, no one would want me to be anyway. But, when we have a alignment internally, then[00:15:00] I can know that our chief revenue officer Eric is thinking about it the same way that I am or Mike, our VP of innovation is thinking about the same way that I am. So when there are questions we can come together and either say, or nay, right. To move forward on something or. We can look each other in the eye and say, you know what, that wasn't really on brand for us. So let's the next time let's rethink the way you approach that. and that accountability is really important.
And I think everyone in the company would say that they feel pretty confident up and down the chain that we can all each other accountable.
Karson Humiston: now that you've been acquired, eh, you know, we just spent time talking about how one brands is super unique in the sense of you never raised outside capital, you never took on debt. You were a unicorn in the sense that you didn't have to answer to anyone besides your own customers and team, frankly.
And now you've been acquired. Talk to us about that process and what it's like now being. post-sale life.
Joe Hodas: So one thing to clarify as, and this was something that's a [00:16:00] nuance that I think a lot of people maybe missed is that it actually is not a full acquisition in the traditional sense in that. Because they're publicly traded on the Canadian markets. They weren't actually able to acquire us directly.
It's what they acquired the right to acquire us. If, and when, if a federal permissability of that occurs and I use that language specifically, a. Kind of contractually what's in the language, but be, it doesn't have to be full legalization. It could be a change in banking, things like that, that would allow them to trigger that option to acquire.
So as a result, it's this best of all worlds. We're still independent, which I think canopy frankly, would want us to be, because I think that we have a successful model and they recognize that and they value and appreciate that. That's why they interested in us. But still have this. Let's say big brother, big sister, kind of us that we can tap into for resources, like, input direction, their insights on things. And, and as such we're we're in constant and regular contact providing guidance as to where we're going and what we're. Yeah. But [00:17:00] also are not necessarily beholden to direction from canopy nor where they give that direction. So, it's a little bit of a meshing of cultures, but not, not completely at it's kind of nice because you can ease into it cause so many acquisitions challenged.
When you try to combine the two companies right. Generally my experience that doesn't work very well, unless you've really thought through it. able to take the time to really integrate and get to know each other before we have to integrate.
Karson Humiston: Yeah. And I think that is a nuance that sometimes when people read headlines, , they don't know all the nuances. So that's super interesting. I actually just am learning that from you. So that's amazing. And really, truly sounds like , you can have best of both worlds and ease into the new relationship.
Switching ahead, as you just talked to us about the last 10 years in marketing for cannabis, what are you looking forward to for the next 10 years? I'm sure there's marketers out there that are listening to this podcast. They're thinking I want to get involved. I want to help shape [00:18:00] a new state, maybe a news day, like New York.
What are your predictions and what kind of advice do you have for new marketers coming into the space?
Joe Hodas: Lot there. Let me kind of, start by saying, for any marketer the space, you have to understand how respect for, a passion for the plant. I mean, and it, , that maybe sounds, I don't know the stereotypical or typical to say, but think a lot of them miss that, . The marketers in particular get the idea of adventure and like starting a new industry and blank slate and all that.
That's great. if you don't understand, have a fundamental understanding of the plan and why it's a special thing. You're probably not going to be a great marketer in cannabis. So that's one, two, even in the next 10 years or maybe even more. So the next year, Flexibility and the ability to, be patient and to make, , twists and turns as quickly as you need to critically important, because don't think it's gonna slow down.
I don't think it's going to become any more common next 10 years. If anything, like I said, I think it might ramp off depending upon what [00:19:00] happens with legalization and other companies getting industry where we're only in sort of second, I would say, cycle of the industry right now. And there's, there's many more to come. Always understand and pay homage to to those who kind of came before. . And I know that I'm sitting here, with company, you just went through acquisition, all that, but I don't necessarily say that. That I shouldn't be here, but I also say, there are a lot of people that are languishing in jail.
And until those things get solved we have some kind of equity across the board, we're going to be holding ourselves back. And I think we are doing a disservice because we have this opportunity. So as a marketer, , think about that first and foremost as part of your overall marketing plan. And then lastly, I would say, stay on top of innovation and consumer needs and trends. think the potential for the plant in terms of what it can do and who we can work for, at the very, very rate know tip of that iceberg. there's so many more ways that the plant and the science behind it's going to improve over the next 10 years. So thinking about it in terms of what are the consumer [00:20:00] need states and how can we provide products that benefit that's where I think innovation should go versus a new flavor or, oh, what if we do throat lozenges instead of chocolates? I mean, that's, I'm thinking in terms of edibles, but not innovation.
That's just, you know, flavor profiles, right. true innovation comes from understanding of the consumer needs and, and there are a lot of them out there right now. There's a lot of consumer needs that I think cannabis can, at least in part helping answer.
Karson Humiston: So Joe, our last question for you before we wrap up, if you could wave a wand and have one thing happened in the cannabis industry tomorrow, , what would that wish be?
Joe Hodas: I have two wishes? Can I, can I
Karson Humiston: Sure. You can have two, you can have two
Joe Hodas: Okay. So two issues that are probably related is. Figure out a way for everyone to coalesce around a, a plan that works for diversity, equity and inclusion, a plan that does allow for, equitable access to this industry across the board. yet to see [00:21:00] one from people that are great proponents of diversity and equity yet to see one that really works across the board and ends effective. So that'd be part one related to that would be fixed banking, Intuity, legalization. Whatever happens with that, okay. Down the road, but in the meantime, fixed banking and to E
Karson Humiston: two great answers. And I think so many people that have been in this space for a long time, or like yourself. Working hard to try to come up with solutions. And it's a challenge, but I feel confident that we'll get there as, as I'm sure you do too. I I always think about many challenges this industry has already overcome.
, and the people behind the industry like you and the rest of the Walnut team and the Dixie team, I mean, these are people who will run through walls and not stop till it happens. So I'm so excited to continue watching your career and, and thank you so much for being here with us today.
Joe Hodas: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate enjoy talking with you and look forward to doing that again.