"Navigating the Wild West of California Cannabis: A Founder's Journey" Live from MJBizCon 2023 in Las Vegas, Karson Humiston is joined by Dave Holmes, founder and CEO of Clade9. The conversation kicks off with a candid discussion about Dave's early exposure to cannabis, starting from a young age due to his older brother's involvement in selling weed. Dave shares how his upbringing around drugs shaped his perspective on the industry.
"Navigating the Wild West of California Cannabis: A Founder's Journey"
Live from MJBizCon 2023 in Las Vegas, Karson Humiston is joined by Dave Holmes, founder and CEO of Clade9. The conversation kicks off with a candid discussion about Dave's early exposure to cannabis, starting from a young age due to his older brother's involvement in selling weed. Dave shares how his upbringing around drugs shaped his perspective on the industry.
As the discussion progresses, Dave delves into his journey in the cannabis business, from his initial experiences with cultivation to navigating the evolving legal landscape in California. He reflects on the challenges of transitioning from a low-profile operation to establishing Clade9 as a legitimate business in the industry.
The conversation shifts to the current state of the cannabis market in California, with Dave highlighting the issues of high taxes, fierce competition from the illicit market, and the struggles faced by regulated operators. He emphasizes the need for tax reforms to level the playing field and make the market more competitive.
Looking ahead, Dave shares his plans for expanding Clade9 to new markets, including New Jersey, and discusses the potential for interstate commerce in the cannabis industry. He touches on the importance of hiring passionate and dedicated individuals for his team, emphasizing the value of both cannabis-specific experience and traditional agricultural backgrounds
Throughout the episode, Karson and Dave engage in a candid and insightful conversation, offering a glimpse into the realities of operating in the cannabis industry and the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. Their authentic and relatable dialogue creates a welcoming atmosphere for listeners, inviting them to connect with the personal experiences and perspectives shared on the podcast.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-holmes-95695810b/
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00:00:16 - Introduction at MJ BizCon 2023
00:01:31 - Early Experiences with Cannabis
00:02:18 - Childhood Exposure to Cannabis
00:03:32 - First Experience with Selling Cannabis
00:04:13 - Transition to Academic Focus
00:04:24 - Introduction to Indoor Growing
00:06:25 - Evolution of Growing Operations
00:08:19 - Formation of Clade9
00:09:18 - Early Days of Establishing the Business
00:10:32 - Current Operations in South LA
00:11:49 - Challenges in the California Market
00:12:18 - Expansion Plans to New Jersey
00:12:57 - Phased Expansion Approach
00:13:14 - California Market Challenges
00:13:33 - Issues with Taxes and Illicit Market
00:14:16 - Consumer Behavior and Market Dynamics
00:15:02 - Importance of Payment Convenience
00:15:51 - Addressing Illicit Market Competition
00:16:02 - Solutions for Market Competitiveness
00:17:11 - Impact of Brand Saturation in California
00:18:39 - Potential for Interstate Cannabis Shipping
00:19:31 - Anticipated Industry Changes with Banking
00:20:33 - Challenges in Hiring for Cannabis Operations
00:22:35 - Hiring Criteria for Cultivation Managers
00:24:37 - Utilization of Technology in Cultivation
00:25:56 - Evolution of Tools and Technologies in Cannabis Industry
00:26:28 - Hopes for Future Industry Developments
Karson Humiston: Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Proud to Work in Cannabis podcast. We're coming to you live, day two from MJ BizCon 2023, Las Vegas. Really excited to have Dave Holmes, founder and CEO of Clade9. And Dave and I originally were gonna do this like the normal way, and then we had to cancel. I forget exactly what happened. Something techie or scheduling or who knows happened. So I'm actually, that was a blessing, because now we get to do it live from Las Vegas. This is way better. I'm happy to be here with you. How's the show going for you so far, Dave?
Dave Holmes: So far, so good. Yep. I mean, walked the show yesterday and then just spent the rest of the day kind of networking and partying. Not really partying, actually, just kind of networking.
Karson Humiston: Well, that's good that you weren't partying. Some of our earlier guests today, we had to give them Advil on the show.
Dave Holmes: Yeah, I might need some like vodka and some, you know, maybe some dabs.
Karson Humiston: Yeah, no, I like it. So what, how many MJ BizCons have you been to?
Dave Holmes: Ooh, I was at the really early ones at the Rio. I don't really know how many there's been, but maybe 2016, 17, approximately. So quite a bit, yeah.
Karson Humiston: Because 2016 and I think 2017, those were both at the Rio.
Dave Holmes: That's right, yeah. 2016, 17, I went to the Rio. So from the beginning.
Karson Humiston: Yeah, so that was my first one too, 2016. Nice. And I was joking that we stayed next. It wasn't joking, but I was serious. It's a joke when I look back on it. We stayed next door to the Rio at the Gold Coast, which is like the worst hotel in America. And it was just like the early days of cannabis.
Dave Holmes: I could probably find some worse, actually. It was probably pretty bad.
Karson Humiston: Yeah, it was the worst I had seen and stayed in. But what a ways the industry has come since 2016.
Dave Holmes: Yeah, it has. Yeah, when the party started to jump to the next level and you saw Mike Tyson hanging out, you're like, people are making money now. People are starting to make money.
Karson Humiston: I have so much that I want to cover on this episode. Really appreciate you being here. Thank you. Can you walk us through a little bit your journey into cannabis?
Dave Holmes: Yeah. I started really young. So my first kind of thing, my first memory of cannabis was picking my older brother up from an LAPD station in the San Fernando Valley as like a seven-year-old kid for getting arrested for selling weed. Wow. And so I was just like, That was my first experience. I didn't see the product, but my first conversations about marijuana cannabis was about seven.
Karson Humiston: And how old was your brother?
Dave Holmes: He was, let's see, he's about 13. Okay. Yeah, and he was already, you know, selling. Right. So I grew up around a lot of drugs. Okay. So it was pretty normal. Yep. You know, so by nine I was already using. So that same brother, of course, bad influence, he got me into selling weed. He was like, yo, we got this stash from my uncle's house. You're going to start selling it to your friends? And I was like, sure. And so that was my first experience actually touching at 9 at 9 consuming sales person and consumer sales and 9 years old.
Karson Humiston: I think you were the every podcast guest that we've had on. I think you got into the industry the earliest. Oh wow, well like it for age wise.
Dave Holmes: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Karson Humiston: I don't know anybody that started selling cannabis before age nine until I met you, Dave.
Dave Holmes: I don't know what to be proud about, but thank you to my brother Mark. Thank you to Mike. Yeah, my brother Mark, he was a good guy, but that was my first experience. And actually at the same time, before I started selling, I saw my uncle was cultivating. in his backyard in the LA area and actually harvested some of the buds that were sold. So, you know, I touched a plant and kind of sold it. But I was only around it for a few years at that young age, got into a lot of trouble and it was kind of like straight and narrow for many years after and then came back to it.
Karson Humiston: So when you were on the straight and narrow in your career, what kind of stuff were you working on?
Dave Holmes: I was just, you know, focusing on like, you know, sports and school. I ended up getting my master's degree in math. And during my grad school years, I met a friend who is also a math major who is growing indoor. And so that was like, huh. He had a big bag of weed in his pocket while we were prepping for some crazy math test. And I could just smell it. I'm like, yo, what is that? He showed it to me. I'm like, All right, this is pretty fire, you know. And so I'm like, how did you get this? And he's like, I grew this in my hydroponic grow room. And that's where he showed me the grow room. And that blew my mind. I'm like, you could do this inside? Like, I didn't know you could do indoor grows. And I was like in the late 90s. And so I was I want to start doing this. And so I call my brother, of course, and he's like, ah, I've been doing this. Mark that. Yeah, I've already been growing for the last 10 years. And so he kind of like started teaching me. But that's how I got into cultivation. That was like what sparked the re-interest. Re-interest.
Karson Humiston: Yeah. And then walk us into, you know, how did you go from, you know, growing with your brother and friend to actually moving in to the California.
Dave Holmes: Yeah, so it was always growing in California in the LA area. you know just like you kind of get Ed Rosenthal had a great quote he's like weed isn't addictive but cultivating it is and I thought it just kept like I wanted you know you it's kind of like a nerdy science you know you build like a laboratory and as like you know academic background, I'm really interested in like, oh, I could change these variables and try to solve these solutions. And there was no real great information on the product. So that really got me interested. And I was like, oh, I could really kind of try these different things. And it was really hard. So you kept failing and failing. But it just made me want to go bigger and try more. And that's what started, I guess, the passion.
Karson Humiston: And so, Klaid 9, how did you actually start the business that's now one of the most well-known brands in California?
Dave Holmes: Yeah, it was a long journey. So, you know, in the late 90s, early 2000s, First, you know, three or four years, it was really just growing in a closet, growing in a garage, growing in a bedroom. And then there, it just seemed like there was like a, kind of a snowball effect. Legal, Prop 215 happened. In California, there was a Senate Bill 420, which basically kind of outlined how 215 works. And that one, you kind of- What year was that? 2004, I think. And that kind of gave the industry some guidance on like, here's how you could kind of legally cultivate and make it work. And so that motivated going bigger. Like, you know, getting an attorney, forming like a collective. And so you started to see dispensaries popping up. And, you know, it was a gradual evolution, getting, you know, four lights, six lights, 18 lights, 60 lights. And it was just more trying to get better at what your craft was at that point. There was no thought of branding. It was just like, I want to grow better weed. And that was the motivation.
Karson Humiston: And at that time you're selling, is it mostly word of mouth is who you're selling to?
Dave Holmes: Oh yeah, I mean, you know, it was still really risky, right? So you tried to keep a really tight circle. Low profile. You know, you had three or four cell phones, maybe more. You know, it was just like really, you know, you could get popped in federal time. So you tried to be really careful. But with the dispensary networks that were popping up, that's kind of where you started to, as a grower, you're a vendor, you bring your product, you show the retailers, and you start selling to the dispensaries. That was the main outlet.
Karson Humiston: So at this point, you're continuing to grow. You said you're growing from 10 lights, 20 lights, 30 lights. At what point did it become clade nine and a real legitimate business?
Dave Holmes: That's a great question. So 2009, so I'm already 10 years in, and there was a new proposition on the table, Prop 19, which was the first recreational cannabis bill. And we thought it was going to pass. We were like, hey, this is the point. Let's start a company. So we actually started a company called Canagen. It was before Klay 9. And we just formed that because we thought, hey, we better get in on the legit side. But it didn't pass. So we ended up, well, we're in the same place we were. So we decided to turn into a consulting company. And we started to help out-of-state operators. So Clayden Eye as a brand didn't actually be formed until 2015. It was really when California itself didn't get sacked together, but we thought it was going to get it sacked together. Now we should launch our own brand. So about 2015 is when we formally came up with the idea of Clayden Eye.
Karson Humiston: What was the early days of actually forming the real business? Because like you said, you had to go from kind of keeping a low profile and doing this in the gray market or full-blown illicit market to now. making and transitioning into the legal market, legal regulated market.
Dave Holmes: You make so many mistakes, you know, you're like, that transition is super difficult. And you fuck up so many things, you create like, you meet a lawyer, might not be the right lawyer, they give you the wrong advice, you create the wrong entity structure. So it was like a, you know, I mean, even now, I think I'm still learning. Obviously, you're always learning as someone who's in a business. It was a difficult transition you kind of had to figure out like no one knew what a cannabis Entity how had to be struck right so we went through a bunch of transitions a bunch of attorneys that were trying to figure out How do you do this the right way right? You know so you could protect yourself federally and actually have profit so That it was a lot of ups and downs changing directions and finally kind of settling out like this will work Let's do this this way
Karson Humiston: So fast forward to today, can you kind of give us like a state of the business now? How big are you guys? Just talk to us about the business today.
Dave Holmes: Right, yeah. So the brand Clay9 has an operation in South LA. We have about It's about 20,000 square feet of indoor. And our goal is to get the full retail distribution, which means everything that we cultivate will go into our package products and we sell. Right now, we're about 65-70% and the rest goes to bulk. We're probably doing about $4.5 million in revenue. Most of it's branded. And we've sold into over 200 stores now. And it's been a really tough fight. Now, California is very difficult. There's so much competition. Retailers are turning over left and right. So out of those 200 stores, we probably have a good 100 customers that are continuously buying. And we're always looking for really good partners. But it's a lot of work. It's like a knife fight in the phone booth, for sure. And there's always fires to put out. But we know California is difficult. We want to keep going and trying to just get past the craziness. It's a total nightmare, regulatory-wise, tax-wise. It's a tough market. So we're looking into other markets. So we got a license in New Jersey. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you.
Karson Humiston: You do a lot of work there, so we can help you there, too.
Dave Holmes: Hey, we need it.
Karson Humiston: And the badging process there for employees is a challenging one, a little bit different than California in that the employees have to get a badge, and it has to be attached to your license. We do a lot of work there with helping the workers get on the bench.
Dave Holmes: We're going to need your help because I have to staff up a lot of people quick. Good. I'll talk to you about that after the podcast.
Karson Humiston: We'll talk off the podcast. We'll loop our salesperson Logan in. Get on it.
Dave Holmes: I have like 20 positions to fill.
Karson Humiston: 20 positions.
Dave Holmes: Don't leave. So now we're looking to expand to Jersey. We know that that market is in a good place. It's not too overly saturated yet. And there really is a lack of high quality product. It's mostly MSOs. So we know that if we bring our really high quality California product and some other brands with us, we'll do really good out in New Jersey. So we have a really big warehouse. It's like 130,000 square feet.
Karson Humiston: Holy cow, so this is going to be much bigger than 20,000 square feet in California.
Dave Holmes: It's way bigger, but we are phasing it. So we're starting with about the same size and then kind of like phasing over time. It is too much to bring on at once. Yeah, 100,000 square feet. And there's no money available, no one to invest in that. Right. So that's where we are. We just got our approval. We ordered metric tags, I think, this week. Wow. And so we will be bringing plants in in about a week or two. Holy cow. So you're going to be spending a lot of time in New Jersey. Yeah, a lot of time.
Karson Humiston: Backing up and going back to the California market a little bit, we know, we hear from our customers and industry peers like it is a shit show, is what people say to us when they describe it. As an insider that's on the ground, what is making it be such a mess in California?
Dave Holmes: There's a lot. I mean, number one, taxes are way too high. Taxes are way too high. It's really expensive to get in as a regulated operator. So then you kind of burn all this capital getting to operate. And then there's so much illicit market competition and there's no enforcement. So it's like I spent all this money to get regulated. And, you know, I'm trying to do it the right way, you're paying all these taxes, and then because of that, you're competing with an operator who has a shop maybe down the road who doesn't pay taxes. And it's really unfair.
Karson Humiston: It's really tough. You tried to do everything by the books and do it the right way, and now you've got Joe Schmoe down the street who's not doing it the right way.
Dave Holmes: And I know Joe Schmoe, he's a homie, but at the same time, you know, it's like, yo, but I mean, to be honest, California is such a shit show, like, you know, the regulators aren't doing anything, like the cops aren't doing anything, not that I want them to, I don't want them to arrest cultivation operations that are illicit.
Karson Humiston: You don't want them to arrest Joe Schmoe.
Dave Holmes: No, no, of course. But at the same time, the easy solution is really just to drop taxes where our product can compete with the illicit product. If the prices are the same, let it be a free market. Yes. The problem is when we're paying, someone who buys an eighth at 40 walks out the door at 65, and they can buy the same eighth at $40 and not walk out at $65, they're going to buy that $40 eighth. The consumer is still super price conscious.
Karson Humiston: And the consumer is super convenience conscious. When you think about payments and why payments needs to get solved, we need to make the experience of buying cannabis as easy as using a DoorDash delivery app, which you can text Joe Schmo, Venmo him. and have it delivered to your house. That's a great experience in the illicit market and that's just more convenient for people and cheaper. That's what people are drawn towards, but it really makes it unfair for folks like you and a lot of other great people in the industry who are like, listen, I want to do this by the books. I want to build a legitimate big growing business. So do you, again, you think the answer is the state dropping in taxes on, but how do they get them to, but how do they, without any kind of like, you know, enforcement, how do they get them to pay the taxes?
Dave Holmes: Who, the illicit market? Well, you don't, I mean, you can't even, you're never going to stop the illicit market, right? I mean, I was doing it 20 years ago when I could have got federal time. That didn't stop me. It's not stopping them now, especially when you get a misdemeanor for unlimited cultivation. So I think arresting people has never been a solution. It didn't stop people then. It's not stopping them now. The only way is to make the markets equally competitive. I'm fine. There could be 20 trap shops on my block. But either one, make it so our pricing is the same, or I could sell to them, one or the other, or both. It can't be the fact that you don't enforce illicit, you overtax us, overregulate us, it's impossible to survive. There's no way you could make it happen. And it's weird, like on the East Coast, it's so overly regulated and there's less illicit competition, but then it's so overregulated, you know, there's the product quality suffers because of the regulations. And a lot of times like the lab testing is too crazy, you know, and there's all these, you know, specific conditions that just make, Focusing on product quality, not. That's the most important thing. Where California, we can really focus on quality, which is why people are coming to California every day to buy product and bring back to their states.
Karson Humiston: What do you think about just the sheer number of brands and businesses in California? Does consolidation need to happen? It does seem to me like… I heard something like there's 3,000 brands in California.
Dave Holmes: How is that even possible? I've been watching the data. If you look at BDS data, there was 1,100 brands in January. And I think in August, it was like down to 700, 750. So it is dropping. And those are at least the brands that just have like actual sales. I mean, there's a lot of other brands kind of waiting to get in, but there is contraction. It is really slow. You know, we need it to be faster. Faster contraction. Yeah, faster contraction. It's like slow death. Yeah, it's a slow death. It's torturous for us as operators, you know. Because nobody, I mean some people are making money, but not very few people are making money in any part of the business. Cultivation, manufacturing, retail, it's all difficult on the regulated side.
Karson Humiston: Now, what are your thoughts on just like shipping across state lines, like, you know, you hear Florida oranges, right? Like, do you think over time, this industry moves to a place where cannabis is grown in California and places where it makes sense for cannabis to grow and then it can be shipped to other states? Or do you think that the industry will unfold in such a way where it's state by state because the states want to bring the businesses, bring the jobs, bring the tax revenue to their states? How do you see it unfolding long term?
Dave Holmes: I think, yeah, I mean, hopefully it unfolds where we could ship, you know, because it's not expensive to ship. I mean, I could ship to the East Coast super cheap. So, like, if someone wants a brand that's producing in California, Yeah, why shouldn't they be able to buy it in Florida and just have it shipped or Texas or Alabama, just like you can with other products. So I do think that that will make a big difference. Of course, once that happens, I mean, you might not want to grow in California because it's too expensive. Maybe you go to Oklahoma, right, or wherever, like Arizona might be cheaper. But I mean, the brand still has a presence, I think, wherever it has a presence, you know. But I think the consumer should be allowed to ship and buy from wherever they want to buy.
Karson Humiston: Now how about 2024? Assuming 280E goes away with rescheduling, how much does that help your business?
Dave Holmes: It's hard to know. I mean, I think obviously we have reduced costs because of our banking is opened up. Maybe we get merchant services, so like it reduces the cash burden, which is really expensive. You have to have like multiple employees to make sure your cash is on point. You have to have courier services picking it up. There's more security, so your costs go down. That will help for sure. Maybe we could get bank loans that'll reduce like, you know, these really high interest loans. That'll be great. So I mean, I mean, I think it I think it only helps. Right. And, you know, the other thing is to hopefully that'll motivate more capital coming into the industry, because right now it's so tight. It's so tight. It's so tight. It's like, how do you, all these other business, you know, like, if you're in tech, you could raise money for decades, still be losing money, you know. But as long as you're showing progress to kind of get to a goal of growth, then it makes sense to invest in it. But there's no such capital. In cannabis right now. Survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest, for sure.
Karson Humiston: So switching gears a little bit about the team and the people that you hire, this podcast is called the Proud to Work in Cannabis podcast. And we have tens of thousands of people coming to banks to try to find jobs in the industry. And so I always like to ask the founders and CEOs, when you look to hire and bring people into your growing business, you've got a great operation in California. You're soon going to have one in New Jersey. It's not just you anymore. What do you look for in people? And what has been things that have made people successful long term that work at Kaleid9?
Dave Holmes: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's funny, me and a friend had a conversation. We're both kind of founders and kind of industry, we've been in the industry forever. And so, you know, back in the day, the way you looked at people you hired was a lot different. And a lot of people in cannabis like myself, sometimes it's a bad habit of thinking about hiring people like from the old days, because it was about like trust. Like, I'm going to bring you into my warehouse, like you can't be a snitch. You know and so you can't think that same way so it took me and I'm still getting there kind of getting over like That's not the main trait. In 2005, if you're bringing someone to your warehouse, the main trait is trust. More than you will not snitch no matter what. Like someone puts a gun in your face, you're not gonna call the cops. So like that is not important if you're hiring for like a corporate facility in New Jersey, right? So it's taken years to kind of learn like what are the things I'm looking for. And I think, you know, that trait, whatever it is, is still, I think, great. You know, you want, like, loyalty. You want somebody who's really passionate. That's really important. And you want someone who's dedicated, hardworking, who's really open-minded. That's really important.
Karson Humiston: For New Jersey, when you're building that team out, how are you thinking about building that team? What kind of roles are you going to be hiring for across the board?
Dave Holmes: I know we're going to talk about it after. Cultivation manager is like number one.
Karson Humiston: And those people, do you look for them to have, what kind of experience do you look for in your cultivation managers? Previous cannabis experience, or do you want them to not have cannabis experience, more traditional ag, because you want to teach them your way?
Dave Holmes: Yeah, I mean, I think limited cannabis experience is fine. You know, I do like an ag background, definitely, because it's a very, I mean, we're growing, it's a What is it? CEA. It's a CEA environment, right? Controlled Environment Agriculture. It's very scientific. And so there's people trained in that profession, whether it's like tomatoes or cucumbers, you could bring that skill set to cannabis. But on the quality side, on kind of strain selection side, there's a lot of like nuances that are very cannabis specific. But someone who has like a CEA background I think I could train them quickly. And it's really is like if they're dedicated, they're passionate. It'd be nice to have someone who has both, but I could hire from both sides. Someone who's more cannabis focused, doesn't have the academic background, they're really passionate, have a lot of experience, they're open-minded, great. Or they're on the CEA side, fresh out of school, and they want to learn the industry, and they're really passionate. I'm open to that as well. On the cultivation manager, you definitely need some management experience, whether it's in traditional ag or in cannabis. But I just think passion, hardworking, you know, the drive, and, you know, like, someone who understands, there's these operations people that you can kind of tell when you talk to them, like, this is an operator because of how they think about things. Very analytical. They like data because we're very data specific. So you have to like data to be in cultivation, especially on the management side. If you're just like an associate, not necessarily. But for that manager position, I need someone strong in data.
Karson Humiston: On the cultivation side, speaking of data, is there any tools or platforms that you've used that have helped you to be more successful?
Dave Holmes: on the cultivation side. I mean, a lot of like, you know, technology, obviously, just like, you know, from the old days of hand watering to, you know, fertigation systems where you're running the whole facility, it's doing everything from a central computer. But yeah, there's a lot of systems I use. Software wise, I haven't really found any type of ERP, you know, we're still really traditional. We have, We run a Preva in our cultivation that runs our fertigation.
Karson Humiston: Oh yeah, Preva, that's like the AI?
Dave Holmes: Preva is like a, they have software, but it's more like a, it's an equipment manufacturer. They create fertigation systems. So it distributes the nutrients to the plants. So we use that on the irrigation side. And then we kind of, one of our partners is like a genius in HVAC engineering. So he designed all our HVAC systems and he has a control system that controls the environment. But we use a couple of other sensors. We've used a lot of sensors over the years. GrowLink, Arroyo, I mean Smartbee back in the day. You've gone through all of the tools. I've been going through a lot of things, yeah, for sure. And it's always evolving. You want to find the newest, best thing, but you've got to be careful not to just keep doing R&D. You've got to make money. You've got to find something that works.
Karson Humiston: It is cool when you think about, even when you walk the trade show floor here, how many new products come out every single year. When we think about being at the Rio in 2016, none of these tools existed. So it is fun to see you know, for all the challenges that we've had, we have made incredible progress as an industry, which leads me to my last and final question. Let's assume that we're sitting here, December 2024, what do you hope for the cannabis industry for next year?
Dave Holmes: The banking, you know, federal legalization potentially. I just don't know how it's going to shake out, but For California specifically, dropping the taxes, because that's where a lot of my energy is spent right now, just trying to keep it going and making sure we survive. But really, we need tax help in California. That would be my wish for 2024. Tax help, everybody. Tax help.
Karson Humiston: If you're a politician listening to this podcast, you need tax help. It'll help us create more jobs, more tax revenue.
Dave Holmes: Tax help, and then let us sell the illicit jobs. There you go. You're not stopping them already. Might as well make sure they have regulated product.
Karson Humiston: Might as well make sure. Well, Dave, it was awesome to have you on the show in Vegas. I'm so glad we were able to do this. And thank you for your time.
Dave Holmes: All right. Thank you.